Last week I talked about my “Holy Spirit-less” baptism, which I received in a Christian church. In fairness, it was so long ago, I don’t remember the details. The pastor may have mentioned the Holy Spirit at some point during the process, but if so, it obviously didn’t stick.
For the next decade or so, my focus would be solely on God and Jesus, which isn’t a bad thing. It just happens to be only 2/3rds of the puzzle.
I didn’t really start thinking about the Holy Spirit until I read Francis Chan’s Forgotten God. As the book’s name suggests, Chan speaks about how the modern church has neglected teaching about the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, I concur, but I also take the stance that it’s not the church’s job to teach me anything. Ideally, yes, the church should teach, but no one in the church is responsible for my relationship with the Trinity. If I truly want to learn about this mysterious three-in-one God, I must take personal responsibility and study on my own.
Regarding the church, however, there seems to be two extremes: under-emphasis on the Spirit and over-emphasis on the Spirit. On one side you have the conservative protestant churches Chan is speaking to which have, for the most part, forgotten to teach about the Holy Spirit. On the other side you have charismatics and pentecostals getting drunk the the “spirit” every Sunday morning. (The quotes and small ‘s’ are purposeful, but that’s another post.)
Maybe this is why I’m increasingly skeptical and distrusting of many modern Biblical teachers. Where’s the balance? It’s either, all love, or all hell fire, prim and restrained, or rolling and shaking and speaking in tongues.
So I asked myself, “Who do I trust to teach me about the Holy Spirit?” and I landed on Charles Spurgeon, specifically his sermon titled “Grieving the Holy Spirit”.
I don’t know if I’m becoming more old fashioned in my old age or what, but I find Spurgeon’s teaching style refreshing and appealing, as well as extremely enlightening. So much so that I could probably stand to read this sermon every morning for the next year.
The entire sermon is well worth the read, but I will highlight the sections I found particularly helpful below.
…for grief is a sweet combination of anger and of love. It is anger, but all the gall is taken from it. Love sweetens the anger, and turns the edge of it, not against the person, but against the offense… Instead of wishing me ill as the punishment of my sin, he looks upon my sin itself as being the ill. He grieves to think that I am already injured, from the fact that I have sinned.
Oh,—but let us blush to tell it—how often have we done despite to him! When we were in a state of unregeneracy, how we were wont to resist him! We quenched the Spirit; he strove with us but we strove against him. But blessed be his dear name, and let him have everlasting songs for it, he would not let us go! We would not be saved, but he would save us. We sought to thrust ourselves into the fire, but he sought to pluck us from the burning. We would dash ourselves from the precipice, but he wrestled with us and held us fast; he would not let us destroy our souls.
Now I would not wish to exalt one person of the Trinity above another, but I do feel this, that because Jesus Christ was a man, bone of our bone, and flesh of our flesh, and therefore there was something tangible in him that can be seen with the eyes, and handled with the hands, therefore we more readily think of him, and fix our love on him, than we do upon the Spirit. But why should it be? Let us love Jesus with all our hearts, and let us love the Holy Spirit too. Let us have songs for him, gratitude for him. We do not forget Christ’s cross, let us not forget the Spirit’s operations. We do not forget what Jesus has done for us, let us always remember what the Spirit does in us.
Now, it is by the Spirit of God that the Christian is sealed, that he is kept, he is preserved, sealed unto the day of redemption—–sealed until Christ comes fully to redeem the bodies of his saints by raising them from the death, and fully to redeem the world by purging it from sin, and making it a kingdom unto himself in righteousness. We shall hold on our way, we shall be saved. The chosen seed cannot be lost they must be brought home at last, but how? By the sealing of the Spirit. Apart from that they perish, they are undone. When the last general fire shall blaze out, everything that has not the seal of the Spirit on it, shall be burned up. But the men upon whose forehead is the seal shall be preserved.
How may we grieve him,—what will be the sad result of grieving him—if we have grieved him, how may we bring him back again?
…You may grieve him by impure thoughts…
…We grieve him yet more if we indulge in outward acts of sin…
…I think I now see the Spirit of God grieving, when you are sitting down to read a novel and there is your Bible unread…
…You have no time for prayer, but the Spirit sees you very active about worldly things, and having many hours to spare for relaxation and amusement. And then he is grieved because he sees that you love worldly things better than you love him…
…the Holy Spirit is exceedingly grieved by our unbelief.
…there may be some of you here who have lost the visible presence of Christ with you; who have in fact so grieved the Spirit that he has gone. It is a mercy for you to know that the Spirit of God never leaves his people finally; he leaves them for chastisement, but not for damnation. He sometimes leaves them that they may get good by knowing their own weakness, but be will not leave them finally to perish.
I beseech you use every means by which that Spirit may be brought back to you. Once more, let me tell you distinctly what the means are. Search out for the sin that has grieved the Spirit, give it up, slay that sin upon the spot; repent with tears and sighs; continue in prayer, and never rest satisfied until the Holy Ghost comes back to you. Search out for the sin that has grieved the Spirit, give it up, slay that sin upon the spot; repent with tears and sighs; continue in prayer, and never rest satisfied until the Holy Ghost comes back to you.
Oh I hear the word of the gospel, ere ye separate, for the Spirit speaketh effectually to you now in this short sentence—“Repent and be converted everyone of you, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord,” and hear this solemn sentence, “He that believeth in the Lord Jesus and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” May the Lord grant that we may not grieve the Holy Spirit. Amen.
photo credit: marcp_dmoz via photopin cc
Jess, I won’t stride to the pulpit here with Bible in hand and start preaching, but if you want to email privately what we’ve spoken of before, please feel free. I can’t tell you how devoutly and strongly I feel about this subject because the intensity of the value outweighs so much of what goes on in today’s churches of ALL kinds. The Spirit is willing . . .
Hi, Nicole. Good to see you here! 🙂
I’ve been neglecting my blogging circles since the death of Google Reader. I need to get Feedly online on my phone because I feel a bit disconnected.
As for the subject of this post, I don’t mind if you preach here. It’s a worthy subject, I think. And I don’t think it is one that has to be divisive on a personal level. I respect every believers right to discern these matters on their own.
For me, because of past experiences and where I currently am in my life, I’m finding the cessationist POV somewhat liberating. One of my pitfalls is being overly cerebral, which, ironically, the idea of ‘listening’ to God (or the Spirit) can play into. I’ve spent far more time than I’d like to admit feeling angsty, wondering what God wants me to do, thinking I somehow have to uncover his divine plan for my life, otherwise I’ll “blow it”. It’s freeing to realize, huh, maybe God’s not such a micromanager…
I spoke last week of how I didn’t understand the Holy Spirit for a long time, at least not intellectually. Nevertheless, I’ve always been naturally intuitive. That’s led me to become a bit of a ‘coincidence’ ‘reading the signs’ type of person, but now I see this as a potential remnant of my new agey beliefs that might need weeding out. I was influenced (intuitively, I think, without necessarily realizing it) particularly from books like Celestine Prophecy, which touts that nothing is a coincidence and we are on some kind of divine journey toward higher and higher understanding of God. (A poor paraphrase of the book, but it will have to suffice for now.)
Anyway, it’s very subtle deception I’m talking about here, which leads me to understand why the idea of ‘sola scriptura’ came about. And I can see how the American church has slowly inched away from that, to where, we are no longer inches in some cases, but miles away. And I must admit, I find that large of a distance very troubling. On the other hand, I understand why modern culture is leery of the cessationist view. I expect it to become less and less popular (as it already has) and based on some of the end times scripture, that gives me pause.
What I can say here, Jess, is that in every denomination seeking Christ, the enemy of God and our souls rises up to subvert the purity of the Scriptures, the Gospel – anything to deceive and pervert mankind into false teachings and observations, poor witnessing, and even ambivalence.
For me, the beauty and outpouring of Pentecost is unequaled and so needed today because the strength, knowledge, wisdom, and Truth comes directly from the indwelling Holy Spirit who is tasked with leading us into all Truth. However, since we are so dominated by our flesh, we tend to listen to man over Spirit and often choose to hear the spirits over the sometimes quiet voice, direction, leading, and translations/interpretations of the Spirit.
Jesus spoke of “the traditions of men” referring to the stilted, legalistic, and rigid observations of the Pharisees. He accused them of missing mercy, of being whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones. He gave them harsh rebukes because they were more concerned with being “right” in their versions of holiness than being right with God.
So much of this behavior is evident in all kinds of churches today. Bent on traditions in their services with little room for the Holy Spirit to actually minister through different people within the Body. There’s simply “no time” for dead air while waiting for the operation of gifts: tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, faith, words of knowledge and prophecy. There is also little teaching on the differences between being baptized in the Spirit (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:4) with the evidence of speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues which is done for the Body for edification and is always accompanied by the interpretation (1 Cor. 12 & 14). Without teaching no one inquires, observes, or even realizes these gifts are still being issued by the Holy Spirit to build up and edify the Body to be able to go out into this cold, evil world with strength and power from on high to share the Gospel by word, action, deed. Instead this warning in Colossians 2:8 proves ever more important and unheeded.
Okay. Stepping down from the pulpit now. Thank you, Jess.
Thanks for your thorough reply, Nicole. I hope you will be patient with my curiosity and upcoming questions.
I want to state first (even though I think you already know) that I do believe there is a spiritual war going on and that satan and the principalities, powers, and the rulers of the darkness are real, and that they can and do effect and manipulate human behavior. I realize this isn’t a popular view, even among Christians, but all I can say to them is…do your research.
I also believe in the miracles of the Bible, including the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and I also believe the apostles were able to heal and do other miracles/wonders.
Here’s what I have a problem with, Nicole, and maybe you can help me because you are closer to the denomination than I am, but I’ve never read a modern convincing depiction of an outpouring of the spirit. For instance (and I just learned what this was a couple weeks ago) the Azuza Street Revival, which is considered the birth of the modern Pentecostal movement…I’ve read that witches and occultists were drawn to it, and actually sat in on the services. This troubles me. I don’t think occultists would have felt welcome on the day of Pentecost *unless* the Holy Spirit reached them via the miracle and converted them. So, my question is, why were occultists at home and comfortable (still adhering to their occultist beliefs) amidst what is called the birth of the Pentecostal movement. I’ve also read about the Toronto blessing, and similar revivals where the so-called outpouring of the Spirit mimics that of a kundalini awaking which is clearly occultic. (Barking like a dog, uncontrollable movements/spasms, crawling around on the floor like a snake.)
Also, on the day of Pentecost, there was a visible representation of the Spirit, like tongues of fire coming onto the disciples. (I’ve not heard of this happening in modern revivals.) The Bible says they began to speak in tongues that were understandable by foreigners, in other words, they were speaking in foreign languages. There is no mention of barking and shaking and all that.
I fully believe God is capable of another day of Pentecost. I’m not convinced, however, that modern Christians are adept at discerning counterfeits. In fact, I’d say a lot of charismatics are very poor at it, and willing to accept any experience as though it’s from God without testing the spirit that has come upon them. Me personally, I don’t think I’m discerning enough, so I’d rather err on the side of caution. Ain’t no one slaying me in the spirit, no way, hands off, I’m running for the door!!
If I may ask, how does your church handle the spiritual gifts. Is it a weekly outpouring, or a rare occurrence? And how do they discern real from counterfeit? (Sorry for the 20 questions, this subject just troubles me so…what do I do? I research. A lot. Which tends to bring up a lot more questions!)
It’s good to ask questions, it’s good and profitable to do valuable research. I’m familiar with the modern-day (so to speak) rebirth of Pentecost on Azuza Street. I admit I was not familiar with the witches, etc., that sat in on the services. That doesn’t bother me because of the reasons I gave above: wherever God does something major, be it in an individual privately or in a corporate setting, the enemy slithers in to attempt to influence whoever he might.
The initial outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. Until that day so many years ago, the Spirit was sent to individuals, prophets, to relay messages from God, but remember at this time Jesus had “breathed” the Holy Spirit into His disciples and told them to wait for this gift. End of this original outpouring of the Holy Spirit: now we have the privilege of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the availability of this “baptism of fire” which John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of.
If you’ll recall, Jess, in other places in the book of Acts, the disciples asked individuals if they’d received the baptism of the Spirit and when it was explained, the evidence of it came in the speaking of tongues which at first surprised the disciples that anyone could receive it but also pleased them because they regarded it as power from on high. (There were no accompanying physical images with these experiences.)
The “tongues” or “languages” of the original outpouring were used to convert thousands. No mention is made in other experiences of specific languages being uttered, just “tongues” or what has been called “heavenly languages”. My first pastor was baptized in the Spirit when he was 11 years old and spoke in perfect Spanish. He didn’t know Spanish. In the future he didn’t speak tongues in Spanish. It was a one time experience.
Discernment is always key, but a heart seeking after the Truth is not going to be duped by the enemy. This a common and valid fear when seeking the baptism of the Spirit, but God knows our hearts and our fears. He’s able to overcome fear and protect hearts. My personal opinion of this experience – why God might’ve chosen this – is because it takes a great humbling to yield your mouth (tongue) to an unknown (to you) language, to trust Jesus to fill your words with the ones He’s chosen to give you. It’s doesn’t come naturally to us, and it is a supernatural experience. It doesn’t come with great fanfare – but it can. It doesn’t have any particular requirement other than a sold out yielding to the Lord and a desire for more of Him. Some experience it at home privately, some at church in a group setting, some on a nature walk or driving a car. You only yield your ability to utter/talk. You have control – it isn’t mystical – but it can be. It’s a personal experience.
As for being “slain in the Spirit”, that can be “dramatic” or quietly powerful. I’ve seen both, known people who’ve experienced both. I’ve experienced the quick quiet gentle easing back from the soft touch of a trustworthy and powerful preacher who prayed for me. You must remember when it’s real, it’s the touch of God.
Which I assume is your concern: is it REAL? I can tell you yes, it is. But some manufacture all the gifts and this is what repels and causes fear in people. What if I’m deceived? Etc. The Lord will guard you and protect you because you seek after Him with your whole heart and do NOT want to be deceived. The evidence of His Spirit is the Fruit and the Love in our lives. Of course we’re flawed, of course we make mistakes, but it’s the Truth of the Spirit which permeates our lives and must be visible in our actions, countenances, attitudes, and all the things which serve to make us more like Jesus.
From what I know of the modern-day revivals here and abroad, most of them started out in complete submission to the Lord, preceded by longtime prayers, sometimes years of prayer. Many of them became reduced to spectacles after a considerable time. Again, the enemy will infiltrate wherever he has opportunity. Pastors and lay people all have the authority to rebuke spirits and even cast them out if there is serious interference. You probably know that in much of Africa, the Christians fight the dark spirits, spells, and all kinds of demonic demonstrations and consider it just part of the “job” of being a Christian.
Spiritual gifts used to be a regular part of the church we attended, but in our current church they’re only present occasionally. It feels empty and incomplete without hearing from the Lord in that way . . . “the traditions of men” triumph more often than not.
Jess, this is – as you might’ve guessed – extremely important to me. I consider it vital to the church in these last days. Most Christians stop at salvation. They continue to grow, read the Word, help the needy, but the passion that comes from this experience is extra, profound. Honestly, I don’t know if I could’ve survived my faith without the fullness of the Holy Spirit. And I still want more.
Sorry for taking up so much time and space here.
“but a heart seeking after the Truth is not going to be duped by the enemy.”
I’m not as confident as you about this, Nicole, because of the scripture that says in the end times even the elect will be deceived. Satan comes as an angel of light. He can look good and feel like the real thing, but he is counterfeit.
I am aware that other parts of the world deal more directly with demons and exorcisms and the like. I think our intellectualism protects us in that regard, but the dark spirits have other means of taking hold. Since we are far removed from outward expressions of the demonic in this country (for the most part) I think we are more susceptible to being deceived because we lack experience in these matters.
I’ve been reading Pam Sheppard’s blog, Setting Captives Free (beware if you Google it, there’s some strange stuff there), and she comes from the opposite perspective, where she started out charismatic, but has been slowly renouncing certain practices. It could be that she has a history in the occult and thus was an easy target for deceiving spirits. Not sure. It’s a lot to think about, and her warnings are worth considering, even though some of the things she says may seem kind of out there.
I haven’t come to any final conclusions. Well, maybe one, and that is that I need to pay attention to the discomfort I feel about this matter, because I think that is from the Holy Spirit as well. I’m not sure if/when it will ever resolve, and if it means a baptism by fire experience never occurs for me, I feel it is God’s will for me for whatever reason, and I’m good with that.
I guess, I should say, I have a strong sense from God that He does not want me to pursue the experience. If it happens to me, it will happen like it did to Paul, when I’m walking along, minding my own business. 🙂 Paul was a special case, though, and I doubt God has the same sort of plan in my life. Though, I could be wrong. One never knows!
Ooops, I’m on my husband’s computer!
“I’m not sure if/when it will ever resolve, and if it means a baptism by fire experience never occurs for me, I feel it is God’s will for me for whatever reason, and I’m good with that.”
Jess, this is the only sentence of yours I truly struggle with only because it’s hard to argue with the value of the instruction in Acts 1:8. I believe some of the discomfort you feel is the beginning of breaking down barriers not cementing them. It’s tough to face the initial experience because it feels capable of producing a counterfeit experience. As for being duped, I was speaking specifically of seeking after the baptism. God recognizes the condition of the heart and can protect from the enemy. A heart that is vascillating regarding serving the Lord or the devil can certainly manufacture a counterfeit experience, but those who want more of Jesus aren’t going to receive something wicked.
Also, you have only to look into the changing of our country to see the demonic influences and actions being evident in people. They might not be appearing as witch doctors in funny clothes with potions, but they’re no less influenced by evil. Real, bona fide evil. The strength and discernment provided in the power of the baptism is vital and needed, but only when you’ve decided you wish to dive into this offering from the Lord. It will magnify your walk – but again, keep studying, seeking after the Lord, not settling for your human reasoning, listening to the One who won’t mislead you, and see where He takes you on this journey.
You know the difference between good and evil spirits. Yes, the enemy can certainly appear as angel of light, but if you’re sold out to the Lord and continue to pray for His discernment, testing the spirits, and asking for His divine protection, He will not forsake you. The apostate church is clearly coming into its own and you recognize the falseness in their denials of Jesus as the only way to heaven, etc. I’m confident you won’t choose wrong ways.
Thank you for this discourse. Love you.
Jessica, I wanted to respond to this last night, but my kids shouted at me, “I thought you were going to watch a movie with us!” Guilt overcame me, as you can imagine. 😉
I grew up in a Baptist church that went charismatic and then merged with a local, much larger charismatic church. I grew up speaking in tongues. I was told in youth group that I couldn’t grow in my Christian faith unless I learned to speak in tongues. There was so much pressure on me to speak in tongues that I pretended by babbling nonsense. I wanted to have a spirit language, but it just never came. I’m a bit of a sceptic and have always been; perhaps that’s why it just never happened to me. I’m intellectual to a fault.
As an adult, I don’t know what to make of speaking in tongues. So many adults I trusted and respected spoke in tongues. At the same time, there was a big element of distrust I had for “those” charismatics because they were upper class and snobby and placed a lot of social pressure on people to fit into the paradigm. They also tended toward emotionalism, which I’ve grown to accept as a mature adult. Faith isn’t logical. God doesn’t give a rip, necessarily, about our human logic and the constraints we put on him.
I’ve never spoken in tongues, but I don’t reject it out of hand. I think some churches overemphasize it to the exclusion of other parts of scripture. In fact, I would say that, having the Bible from cover to cover multiple times, the Bible places no emphasis at all on speaking in tongues. It does place emphasis on the spirit, though, and I don’t want to ignore the spirit. Here’s my adult experience, and take it for what it’s worth: God sent our family to an LCMS Lutheran church. Since I’ve been taking communion with the understanding that the holy spirit is in the elements (yes, I believe this), I’ve experienced the Holy Spirit in a way I never experienced through speaking in tongues. In fact, nothing like it has occurred since I was baptized. When I was baptized, the spirit spread through my body–I could feel it. Likewise, when I take communion now, after the real wine and bread have been blessed, I feel the Holy Spirit as a literal holy fire inside my chest. I don’t know how to explain it. My entire chest heats up. I’m a wine drinker; I drink a glass of wine almost every night. Wine in and of itself doesn’t do that, at least not in one sip. I’ve wondered, since having come to a deeper understanding of the sacraments, if the charismatic movement was responding to a lack of spiritual nourishment due to disregarding the power of the sacraments, considering them as symbols and logically downplaying them.
I don’t know. As I said, I’m not sure about speaking in tongues. Being an intellectual, I’m at a disadvantage, but God has managed to reach me and infill me with his Holy Spirit. He has also shown me in many, many ways his ability to perform miracles in the lives of his people.
I can’t speak for the specific denominations who “went charismatic”. I think God is gracious to all and willing to help each one of us grow however we can – for our own good and powerful strength in Him and because we need more of Him to fight the flesh and the evil of the world.
I think Jill’s experience with the sacraments is meaningful and an individual gift to her from the Spirit.
I respectfully – but vehemently – disagree with one of your statements, Jill: “I would say that, having the Bible from cover to cover multiple times, the Bible places no emphasis at all on speaking in tongues. It does place emphasis on the spirit, though, and I don’t want to ignore the spirit.” Act 1: 8 is about as important an emphasis as can be made for receiving the baptism in the Spirit, and since the apostles were virtually useless until that baptism, I don’t think its emphasis can be minimized. This was and still is a blessing and empowerment from on high. The whole book of Acts is filled with actions produced by this baptism of the Holy Spirit. And for Paul to give instructions as to the difference of “praying” in tongues for personal use and “the gift of tongues” accompanied by interpretation for the edification of the Body (Corinthians), it can hardly be regarded as possessing little emphasis.
I’ve known haughty Christians who think and act like the baptism in the Spirit elevates them which it certainly does not, but I’ve also known Christians who think their interpetations of certain scriptures make them unequivocally more righteous than those who disagree. And I’ve known other Christians who view their giving, working in the church, etc., as something special and superior so the pride issue isn’t particular to the baptism in the Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues).
It’s difficult to overcome skepticism when it comes to the supernatural in the West. We’re so used to reasoning out “miracles”, not trusting others in the church, often because of their attitudes and/or conduct. And, many who are intelluctally gifted struggle with supernatural portions of scripture when they are manifested.
I always feel badly when I hear of the pressure put upon believers to “do this” to receive the Baptism. Only God sends the gift to willing hearts. Occasionally I’ve known people who He directly intervened in their skeptical lives and just leveled them with a supernatural anointing and the result humbled them. But my experience has been that those who are skeptical will either get to the place where they want this from the Lord, or they won’t. Doesn’t mean they’re any less of a Christian whatsoever.
The only reason I champion this is because the instruction in Acts 1:8 was the final instruction from Jesus. He knew His people would need this power. That hasn’t changed (Hebrews 13:7-8). I know the power of the Holy Spirit has made all the difference in my life even through my many mess-ups. Praying in tongues is a direct line to God. Jesus gave us this lifeline.
And finally (for now), this statement: ” . . . if the charismatic movement was responding to a lack of spiritual nourishment due to disregarding the power of the sacraments, considering them as symbols and logically downplaying them.” This could be the case with some – impossible for me to know – but usually when a non-Pentecostal church becomes “charismatic”, there is someone(s) praying for a deeper walk with the Holy Spirit for themselves and/or a congregation. God answers with the Baptism. A lack of spiritual nourishment may often be the case but to point to a disregarding of the sacraments? That seems like a personal opinion based on one’s own experience rather than a real reading of why many received the Baptism in the Spirit. JMO.
I was tracking with you up to the end. As I said, I’m not sure about speaking in tongues. I’m also not willing to write it off entirely. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is clearly real, but there are only a couple of verses that speak of tongues, and at a plain reading they could just as easily be speaking of foreign languages as spirit languages. You lost me at the end because the sacraments have been historically considered the way in which Christians experience the Holy Spirit. To call that a personal experience of mine is hardly accurate. It denies the historical beliefs of Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans. You may not agree with those beliefs (it doesn’t sound like you are entirely in disagreement), but that doesn’t make them experiential to me. It also denies that the charismatic movement came around after Protestantism had gone down the road of a rational faith with purely symbolic sacraments. But please don’t mistake me for being anti-charismatic. I had both positive and negative experiences in my childhood churches, and I in no way deny that the Holy Spirit will work in God’s people when they are ready and are praying for the Spirit to do his work. And I actually think it was a good response to re-emphasize the importance of spirit work that isn’t entirely rational. That’s precisely why I’ve never been able to come out 100% against speaking in tongues. It’s certainly never wrong to seek Holy Spirit guidance.
Jill, I’m not denying the importance or significance of your experience when taking communion. I just want to throw out (because this is something else I’ve been pondering) is whether we can trust Catholic tradition in these matters? Did Martin Luther agree with this aspect of Catholicism? I would assume so, since you are going to a Lutheran church and their view of the bread/wine seems to align with Catholic thought.
Lutherans have a slightly different take on the elements, but they don’t deny that the spirit is present in the actual elements (both in baptism and communion). I’m not aligning myself w/ Catholicism so much as historical Christianity, which placed emphasis on the sacraments because the Bible does. I don’t think this requires a strict belief in transubstantiation. The entire focus of early church services was different to the way we know it today. The liturgical services revolved around the sacraments. Preaching wasn’t as important–it was about praising, praying, repenting, and reading Scripture to prepare for the taking of the elements (or baptism). I have to run to work. I’ll write more on this later, if you want me to defend my stance above (that the Bible places emphasis on the sacraments).
I just wanted to add that I don’t think this is THE way to do a church service; I’m simply pointing out that Catholic tradition isn’t necessarily wrong because it’s Catholic. The focus of mass was almost entirely on renewal of the spirit.
“You lost me at the end because the sacraments have been historically considered the way in which Christians experience the Holy Spirit. To call that a personal experience of mine is hardly accurate.” I was referring to the burning in your chest with the taking of the wine, Jill, as being a particular (and valuable) experience for you personally, although I do not accept the same doctrine of transformation of the wine and bread as the Catholic church but do not consider it worth disputing.
I appreciate your candor and respect, Jill. Although, I’m a passionate and emotional person – and tend to bend toward “drama queen” for emphasis in certain situations but rarely in angry responses – I am major serious when it comes to biblical doctrine, so I don’t take any of these experiences lightly or without study. I came out of the world but have been in Christ for going on 35 years. I’ve seen multiple kinds of Christians doing/acting good, bad, and indifferent. I have friends in various denominations outside my own, some baptized in the Spirit, some not, of all ages. After watching as new Christians, studying, needing more and more of the Lord, we sought God on this and were blessed with accepting the baptism in the Spirit and eventually were used in the church in the gifts.
It is a choice, although I’ve known God to baptize people who didn’t expect to be while they were in concentrated prayer.
Thank you, Jill, for being open and kind in this discourse.